Curse

AmbientMelody · Jul 24, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

/notsigned

You would only create a mass-scale fame farming with guild smurfs, followed by mass sell of high ranked accounts on ebay. If you think it would make you more likely to get invited because you have a lower rank, you are mistaken. Plus, in order to farm fame like many are doing already now, you need to have good build, good communication and good team. If either fails, no 'fame' for you. HA is guild-based environment basically since IWAY and similar builds got nerfed to dust ... nerfed mainly because they require way less effort to work than a spike build, which can be as effective, but even the latter took a good share of nerfs.

What needs to be done is introduction of HA ladder ranking, based on solo accounts. Upon entering HA it would simply sum up the ratings and look for a foe closest to your 'global' or 'combined' ranking of the team, to not throw you against an elite guild if there are other teams avaible at the moment. I'm not sure how would it deal with heroes in teams, though ... perhaps a median of 'combined' rank of human players in the team per each hero.

PS. If someone wants to repost my opinion as a suggestion thread in Sardelac Sanitarium, feel free to do so. PM me first though, I'd like to participate in that thread and give feedback.

own age myname · Jul 24, 2009, 12:26 PM // 12:26

/notsigned

I myself am only r1, but, rank discrimiation exists for a reason. High rank doesn't show skill, it shows experience. High ranks don't have low ranks because the majority are horrible with no experience.

Join a guild for HA, there is actually a lot of unranked HA guilds out.

EPO Bot · Jul 24, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

I don't care much. HA is way too meta. I would like a random version of HA instead.

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 24, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Sorry but at this point even I have to say rank discrimination will *NEVER* go away. The elitist HAers will abuse every loophole and cranny they can if a system like this was in place to ensure only players they want are in and in the state they want, i.e 1 experienced player an a 2nd account to boost fame.

It's far too late to do anything about the situation now.

All you can really do is build a Gladiator rank and see if people take you based on that instead, which is not a very high chance. HAers themselves are killing/have killed HA.

Avarre · Jul 24, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

This problem makes a wrong assumption that the issue is rank discrimination. It's not.

HA, like all other areas, works by skill and experience discrimination. Rank is simply the easiest indicator of that for PUGs, and thus is symptomatic of players only wanting to group with others of similar skill. Making changes to rank isn't going to have an effect on that, because there are other ways to determine who is actually good.

If anything, rank helps PUGs form by allowing players to find others with experience rather than purely relying on friends lists (which most do anyways). The problem seems to be players with no experience who want to get into experienced groups. That's not going to happen without good networking.

Trub · Jul 24, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

It's far too late to do anything about the situation now.

^This.
Most high ranked HA teams are in their respective guilds, and are in it for the competition.
There is no reason for them to gimp themselves with low-unranked players....that wouldn't be fun.
They gained their fame by competing against others that wanted the same thing: to win!
Why risk losing with a player that doesn't have the experience or instincts they have developed over years of playing?
I'm sorry.../notsigned.

bitchbar player · Jul 24, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I have a question, why are you all calling high ranked players elitist?
It is the same as if i want to join an uwsc, i have no clue what to do their, would you take me? Probably not right. So why would a group of experienced ha players take a unexperienced player which reduces their chance of succes? Would you take me on uwsc if you would think i would screw up your run?

And yeah this idea wont work because most high ranked players use guilds or f-lists so second accounts would be the way to go. It is like asking a top gvg guild to take a unexperienced player into the Monthly.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Jul 24, 2009, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Rank discrimination is not a problem. The only people who seem to think it's a problem are the newer players who aren't willing to put in the effort and want some fast track to becoming good (I.e having good players spoon feed them everything).

Rank is a excellent way for people to gauge the experience of another player and therefore decide whether he is worth bringing a long. If you haven't got the experience then you shouldn't expect to play with people with a lot more experience than you have. You don't expect Top 10 GvG'ers to bring a long people in r1000 guilds do you? You don't expect the hardcore PvE'ers (can't believe I just said that) to bring a long someone who hasn't played the game before. It's just a waste of time.

Basically if you can't be bothered to play with people that have similar experience to yourself and learn together than you really shouldn't expect other people, with better experience, to take you either.

You just have to get used to playing with people who are at the same level as you and you'll find that although the fame comes in relatively slowly, your experience as a player will also dramatically increase as you move up the ranks, you'll also find once you hit around r7 and can look back at how much you've learned, you will realise why the good players never wanted to take you in the first place.

the Puppeteer · Jul 24, 2009, 01:44 PM // 13:44

just give every player a r3 bambi and it's fixed

Pugs Not Drugs · Jul 24, 2009, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Rank discrimination isnt as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Just make your own group. I've made r7++ groups as a r2. Nobody checks the leader.

REDdelver · Jul 24, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

hmmmmm I just wonder......a life with no (rank or other) "discrimination".... a life where people actually enjoy other people who are different from them......a life where people who are "better/more seasoned" bring people who arent to help them...... This only exists in small pockets. And unfortunately it will never exist to the extent you and most people would like.

While it would be great and wonderful for something like this to happen....realistically its impossible. ESSENTIALLY...What you want is for people to change the basic dynamics of their animalistic behavior.

Its not just rank discrimination...its power hierarchry. Its im better than you. Its i dont want to play with that scrub. Its i dont want to play with that n***** (bomb). Its i dont want to play with that frenchie. and so on.

Excuse my usage of wordage...its only to make a true factual point.

All the countless vents/ts's ive been on ...where there is so much hate of other people they dont even know or could care less to even know. Its about fitting in.

And even if it isnt to an extreme extent of "discrimination," people just generally want to play with certain people. Is that discrimination? sure in a simple form. Is the obvious intent to exclude others...not really. But even if I have a group of 8 people i absolutely love playing with.....essentially by not letting anyone in to play....is a form of discrimination.

This really is a struggle between 3 general portions of your brain. One simple thoughts. One being reasoning/rationalization. The 3rd being animalistic. If most people cant even stop discriminating in real life, how can they be expected to stop in a game where you hide behind a monitor. Whether anyone likes or not, we all do it to some extent.

What you are asking for goes above and beyond this game and what ANET can do to help.

PS It does happen in PVE. It happens everywhere.

Avarre · Jul 24, 2009, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDdelver

This really is a struggle between 3 general portions of your brain. One simple thoughts. One being reasoning/rationalization. The 3rd being animalistic. If most people cant even stop discriminating in real life, how can they be expected to stop in a game where you hide behind a monitor. Where anyone likes or not. We all do it to some extent.

Daesu · Jul 24, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie the reaper

Rank discrimination is not a problem. The only people who seem to think it's a problem are the newer players who aren't willing to put in the effort and want some fast track to becoming good (I.e having good players spoon feed them everything).

Rank is a excellent way for people to gauge the experience of another player and therefore decide whether he is worth bringing a long. If you haven't got the experience then you shouldn't expect to play with people with a lot more experience than you have. You don't expect Top 10 GvG'ers to bring a long people in r1000 guilds do you? You don't expect the hardcore PvE'ers (can't believe I just said that) to bring a long someone who hasn't played the game before. It's just a waste of time.

Basically if you can't be bothered to play with people that have similar experience to yourself and learn together than you really shouldn't expect other people, with better experience, to take you either.

You just have to get used to playing with people who are at the same level as you and you'll find that although the fame comes in relatively slowly, your experience as a player will also dramatically increase as you move up the ranks, you'll also find once you hit around r7 and can look back at how much you've learned, you will realise why the good players never wanted to take you in the first place

Actually that is called HELPING someone out, as in the strong helping the weak? Isn't that what being a hero, in any MMO, is all about? Such a concept does indeed exist.

Ironically, it is rare in a game such as this because most people are just interested in their own enjoyment. It is the old "I bought this game to enjoy myself, not to help others mentality".

If you only work with people of similar ranks that are as strong as you are, then you are only helping yourself out, aren't you? This is why I hate HA and TA.

Martin Alvito · Jul 24, 2009, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDdelver

All the countless vents/ts's ive been on ...where there is so much hate of other people they dont even know or could care less to even know.

You're on target here; I spent enough time in top 100 vents back in the early days of GW to know, and my experiences with top players of late have been, if anything, far less satisfying. The basic problem is that most of your top players are right in the age range where in-game success leads to big egos, and those egos start getting in the way of getting the mission accomplished in a hurry. Egos => drama.

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDdelver

If most people cant even stop discriminating in real life, how can they be expected to stop in a game where you hide behind a monitor. Whether anyone likes or not, we all do it to some extent.

Here you reveal that you don't understand the problem. It's not about conformance to social norms, or blind discrimination against "those who are different". In many ways, this community is the inverse of society as a whole; people will put up with a lot socially to play with a team with skill.

Since this is a team game, if you don't bring skill to the table you are wasting my time and the time of every other member of the team. Competence is a vital ingredient. If you don't bring it to the table, and you blame everybody else for discriminating against you because you can't be bothered to develop competence, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Most truly competitive players would prefer to be the WORST member on the team for a couple of reasons. First of all, you enjoy the most short-term success. More importantly, you have the best growth opportunity. You've got seven better players that you have the opportunity to learn from, and you're put under some pressure to grow or be replaced. This usually leads to the greatest development as a player.

The catch is that those other players aren't willing to put up with too large a skill disparity, or you hold them back and effectively waste THEIR time.

REDdelver · Jul 24, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Here you reveal that you don't understand the problem. It's not about conformance to social norms, or blind discrimination against "those who are different". In many ways, this community is the inverse of society as a whole; people will put up with a lot socially to play with a team with skill.

Since this is a team game, if you don't bring skill to the table you are wasting my time and the time of every other member of the team. Competence is a vital ingredient. If you don't bring it to the table, and you blame everybody else for discriminating against you because you can't be bothered to develop competence, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Most truly competitive players would prefer to be the WORST member on the team for a couple of reasons. First of all, you enjoy the most short-term success. More importantly, you have the best growth opportunity. You've got seven better players that you have the opportunity to learn from, and you're put under some pressure to grow or be replaced. This usually leads to the greatest development as a player.

The catch is that those other players aren't willing to put up with too large a skill disparity, or you hold them back and effectively waste THEIR time.

Im not so sure you are correct about me not understanding. You perfectly elaborate deeper beyond my point of view, but assuming that I dont understand the real problem is untrue. Its partly also my fault for not going into more specifics.

There in-lies my point. The chances of your explanation of being the greater percentage of thinking are probably slim. So therefore, you are probably an exception. (which is a good thing)

For one to know one doesnt have any skill to bring to table, one must place with that "one" first......right? Rank discrimination begins at what rank you are, not at what rank you play at. While we are both right, my statements tends to support "rank discrimination" which is the topic.....where yours tends to support skill level "discrimination."

Theres a difference. If you take on someone with low rank and they show they can play....hey great for both of you. But if you dont pick up someone because they are unranked. Theres your difference.

While I believe we are one the same page, I fealt there need to be some clarification.

Edit ...I'll explain my thinking in another way.

I used to be a supervisor in a large beer distribution warehouse. I hired 2 people at same time, both with no forklift experience. I could have easily said to HR that I didnt want them because of no forklift experience. (but I didnt) One guy picked up running the forklift/duties easily within the 3 month grace performance period. The other struggled and struggled.

As much help and assistance I gave him, he was unable to do what was needed to do the job and help out the crew. Sadly, I had to hire someone else. Fact was, we had a business to operate and things need to be done by a certain time.......and we needed people who could do the job.

Scythe O F Glory · Jul 24, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Solution to rank discrimination:

Your guild.

/notsigned

Too bad you can't get into any sort of decent PvP guild without rank.

Sai Rith · Jul 24, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

OR you could make a guild and friends with others at your rank and be patient? The problem with every (or 95%) r0-2 is that they all they think they deserve to be with better ranked players, and think that the other r0-2s are worse than them. Just get start a guild with unranked players who are patient and have the dedication.

/notsigned

Martin Alvito · Jul 24, 2009, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDdelver

Theres a difference. If you take on someone with low rank and they show they can play....hey great for both of you. But if you dont pick up someone because they are unranked. Theres your difference.

I absolutely agree with this. However, you don't want to pug a low ranked player without good reason, because the lack of rank indicates a lack of experience with good teams, and as a result a lack of skill. A good friend of mine used to talk to low ranked players in PMs for a while iwhen we were 7/8 and friends lists ran dry. The idea was that he could generally get a feel for whether the low ranked player at least showed intelligence and promise, and might therefore be worth playing with.

Rank is a low cost signal. It's not a great one. It never was, but as time passes it takes more and more rank to actually signal anything. Most highly ranked players that you could pug are also bad, but on average they will be far superior to the low ranked player.

My view may be a minority view, but experience suggests to me that as you move further up the food chain the views of players continue to more closely approximate that view.

fires element · Jul 24, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

more often than not ppl will still play with those they know so ending rank discrimination won't change anything. but if you want to get rid of all the LF R x+++ then just eliminate the hero title track all together

Daesu · Jul 24, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai Rith

OR you could make a guild and friends with others at your rank and be patient? The problem with every (or 95% of them) r0-2 is that they all they think they deserve to be with better ranked players, and think that the other r0-2s are worse than them. Just get start a guild with unranked players who are patient and have the dedication.

/notsigned

The purpose of partying up with people lower rank than you is to help them. How do they learn if they dont party up with higher rank people?